Episode 20: Decolonizing Water Part 2
“Why not just start with the question? What if we just gave land back to Indigenous peoples?”
Cutcha Risling Baldy
A conversation with Dr. Cutcha Risling Baldy (Humboldt State University) about land and water use futures, decolonization, and communities in California (Part 2/2). Released May 14, 2021.
guests on the show
Cutcha Risling Baldy
Dr. Cutcha Risling Baldy is an Associate Professor and Department Chair of Native American Studies at Humboldt State University. She received her Ph.D. in Native American Studies with a Designated Emphasis in Feminist Theory and Research from the University of California, Davis, M.F.A. in Creative Writing & Literary Research from San Diego State University, and B.A. in Psychology from Stanford University. Dr. Risling Baldy studies Indigenous feminisms, California Indians, and decolonization. Dr. Risling Baldy is the author of We Are Dancing For You: Native feminisms and the revitalization of women's coming-of-age ceremonies, which considers coming-of-age ceremonies in the context of decolonizing practice, ethnography, water, and gender. Check out the Understanding Water Policy, Law, & Tribal Sovereignty series mentioned by Dr. Risling Baldy here. Learn more about Dr. Risling Baldy’s work here and follow her on Twitter.
TRANSCRIPT
Faith Kearns
Welcome to Water Talk. We had a really generative conversation with Dr. Cutcha Risling Baldy that we broke into two episodes. And we're so pleased to bring you the second part of our discussion about decolonizing water today. As we're all probably feeling, we're entering another dry year here in California. And there was a lot of discussion about water for the environment, water for fish. Those are really salient themes from talking with Dr. Risling Baldy.
Mallika Nocco
The thing that I loved about this episode and I think that people should listen for is just this question of why not start with visioning and considering what if we gave land back and water back to Indigenous people to manage? And starting first with that question, and then kind of proceeding from there. I really like that frame of starting with a question and then kind of starting to think about what could be possible without immediately thinking of all of the barriers or logistical issues. I really enjoyed Cutcha's visioning in this episode, and just actually it throughout our whole conversation.
Sam Sandoval
I would like our audience notice how as we're grieving once again, the drought with many centuries of grief of the Indigenous community for the river and the fish, their way of living. Listen to how Cutcha is talking about this ecological grief, and how it's important for their lifestyle, their culture, and the traditions they have, as they oriented themselves by the river. It is also so important for their cultural activities.
Faith Kearns
One of the things that has been striking me is that we're entering this dry year again, and I think that more and more people are talking about it not so much as a temporary situation, right? There's people arguing that we need to not be calling it drought anymore.
Mallika Nocco
I was gonna say Faith, I was curious, I noticed you said dry year twice. And I was like Faith is not saying the word drought. What's that about?
Faith Kearns
I think the term drought is one that's overused and one of the things that I've been pushing for a lot is we really have to be more specific when we're talking about drought. Because California, in a certain way, is always in drought. If you look at it from a water supply perspective, there will always be people who feel like there's not enough water here. And then there's the actual sort of meteorological drought, climatological drought, and all of these things have different meanings, socioeconomic drought. And then there's this climate change context in which people are now talking about aridification.
I'm originally from Arizona, and the Southwest has been in essentially a 20 plus year drought. At what point do you begin to stop calling that drought. I don't love the terminology of new normal, but just this process of an aridifying climate system, where it's just getting drier and hotter, and as we think about a lot of the tradeoffs that have already been made around water and how those will intensify into the future, I do feel like Cutcha presents this very interesting and straightforward way of thinking about how we might think about that topic differently.
Without further ado, please listen to part two of our conversation with Dr. Cutcha Risling Baldy. You wrote this beautiful book called We Are Dancing for You that centers on the revitalization of women's coming of age rituals, particularly within your own Hoopa Valley tribe. And water plays a significant role in rituals and jsut life for your Tribe, as you were just talking about. Can you tell us a little bit more about the work for your book?
Cutcha Risling Baldy
The book really is about the ways in which our community worked to revitalize our women's coming of age ceremony. It reviews historically why it was that our women's ceremony was particularly targeted for eradication. Even though there was a time when we might not have done it as publicly or we didn't really do it very often, as a result of colonization, it never left our community imagination or cultural imagination and our elders were very clear they really wanted it to return. And so, it's about that revitalization.
It talks about what does revitalization and resurgence look like in this time that we're in right now? And what have we been able to do to show it as a practice of decolonization? How do we push back against all the things that are internalized and pushed down on our young people? It's a really beautiful story about our community coming together to say it's native women and girls that we need to uplift and uphold, and then seeing the impact of that. So, I'm able to interview the young women who have gone through that, the stories that I've been able to tell outside of that, and that are really important in regard to water is there was a there was a period of time in 2002 when there was a massive fish kill in our region as a result of the continued seizure of water by the Klamath dams that were happening. The Klamath River was very, very sick, the salmon got really sick and 1000s upon 1000s of salmon died on the shores of the Klamath River.
When you see that as an Indigenous person who grew up with this river as so central to who you are, and salmon too, it's a devastation that I can't really describe. Because the question that I think a lot of Indigenous scholars have asked is, well, how do you mourn? How do you mourn the loss of a river, the loss of salmon? But there's a palpable mourning in our communities because of this. It was a reminder of the perilousness of what is happening in our communities with settler colonialism. I think a lot of that was internalized by our young people because they had to watch our elders go through that.
I always use the example of my own grandfather, he was the strongest man alive, right? He's since passed away, but just was a Superman, and we actually used to be like, he's Superman. And watching him look out at what was happening in our community and crying and saying to me, what does this mean for our future? What's happening? Is there any way out of this? I think to revive, like to get people really invested in what dam removal was, it's to show you that we're watching 1000s of fish die.
Well, fast forward to a few years later. And one thing that Indigenous peoples in our region did because of that is now we employ all of these scientists. And their job is to watch and do the monitoring of the river so they can see the conditions and what could happen for the salmon. So, we took up our relationship and were like, we're responsible for the salmon. Nobody else is doing it. We have to make sure this never happens again. So, they monitor all of the conditions of the river. And at one point they figured out that the same conditions on the river exist right now that existed during the fish kill. And if we continue in this way, this is the exact same situation, and we can't have that happen again. So, they went to the Bureau of Land Management at the time, and this was during Obama's administration, and they said we need more water. Because if we don't get more water, a bunch of fish are going to die. We have all the scientific evidence; we have everything we need. You're setting yourself up for a fish kill.
The Bureau of Land Management said to the tribes, we can't do anything until you find a dead fish. So, the minute you find a dead fish, let us know. And then we will send you more water. And the scientists pointed out, okay, so it takes like three days for the water to actually get to us. And so by the time we find like a dead fish, and then you send on the water, it's likely not going to save any of the fish. They were like, what are we supposed to do? And we actually as Indigenous peoples in this region started walking the rivers looking for dead fish, because we were like that's the only way that they're going to listen to us. And at the same time, the Hoopa Valley Tribe organized protests at the top of the dam, which is in Lewiston, which feeds into the Trinity River. They brought the tribal members on a bus to the dam, and they were like, we're here to call attention to the fact that if we don't get water, our fish are going to die. And it's going to do the same thing. And we need the water.
I started tweeting a lot. Actually, the hashtag we used at the time was #releasedthedamwater. And we were tagging the Bureau of Land Management. We were tweeting everybody, taking pictures. But the really beautiful thing is these girls who had been through the ceremony recognized that if the water was sick, and at the time it was testing at levels where the algae was so high that it was toxic — they always say, "don't let your animals drink the water, it's toxic" but they never say human beings are at risk but we're like, I assume that means us too — and what the what the young woman pointed out was, if the river is toxic, then when we do this ceremony, we can't go in the river. And we have to, as part of the ceremony, we have to go in the river. So, you are effectively stopping this ceremony from happening. And you are disconnecting us from our community, and you are causing these massive problems, because these are the things that help these young women to be able to do all kinds of things in the world, right?
When we're talking about our suicide rates, or what's happening in our schools, these are the things that helped them. So, they were like, that's wrong. So, they showed up at this dam in like 109-degree weather and they sang at the top of the dam their coming-of-age songs. And they basically were like, if you can't give us our water, this is what you're losing. And this is so important to us. And these are all young women like 13 to 17-18 years old. And that to me showed how important this connection through ceremony is because they felt a responsibility to that river. And they showed up and they were like, this is our river, and we are connected to it. And I know it makes an impact in my life. I can't think about other generations not having that because the river is toxic.
And as a result of that protest, they did release water into the Trinity River to try to stave off what was a fish kill, and it didn't happen. So, I think that it took all of that energy in motion to make a government system listen, but to see our young people step up because they felt so connected to the space based on all of the things that we do to connect them, that's what I think you're talking about when you're talking about the relationship, right, like the radical relationality and what that leads too.
Faith Kearns
Thank you so much for sharing that story. One of the other major issues facing all of us these days is wildfire. And in a recent interview, you had said to the reporter, if you want to support Indigenous knowledges, cultural burning, moving toward Indigenous sciences, you also have to support land return, you also have to support our sovereignty over our lands. Can you talk a little bit about efforts to return land and relatedly perhaps water and water rights in California today?
Cutcha Risling Baldy
You know, we compiled a report, one of my graduate students who I work with, her name is Carrie Tully, and myself. If you go to my website, you can see it under the publications, we actually compiled a report of land returned in California and the ways in which multiple people have approached what land return looks like to Indigenous peoples. I will say this, it has been proven through like studies that land that is under the control of Indigenous peoples tend to have more biodiversity, tends to have a better forest system. tends to be more cared for. and tends to be used in a way that people value in terms of not just being used for extractive industries. And they've shown that across the world, if you look at where the Indigenous land holdings are.
So, I always say to people when they start talking about what is the solution to fires I'm like give the land back and everything will be better. And then people always want to point out like, but what if it's not and I always say, look, give all the land back. And if there's a Tribe that is super mean to you and like kicks you off, or does something bad, you can come to my house and knock on the door. I will open it and you will say you were wrong and then I will say you are correct, I was wrong. And then we'll go from there. But until that time, just start doing it.
I know people have started. People always want an easy way that looks like, but I will tell you what we found out about land return in California especially is that it's looked many different ways. Private owners have given land back to Indigenous tribes. Public agencies like PG&E have given land back to tribes. Governments have given land back to Tribes, city governments have given land back to Tribes, the state has started to give land back to Tribes. I know that Governor Newsom recently did like a statement or something, I forgot what it's called and it's not like an executive order, but it's a statement where he's basically saying that in this state lands should first be considered for return to Indigenous peoples before anything else. We should be given the option of having the land returned to us in our own region.
The biggest thing that has happened in the last year has been the return of a sacred island to the Wiyot peoples. So Tuluwot is the center of the world. And as a result of a massacre in the during the Gold Rush, they were pushed off of that island for a long time, it was privately owned and then it became city property. And then just last year, the city of Eureka returned the island to the peoples. And this was not like a short process, this was like an over 20-year process. But in the end, we saw it happen last year. And I think that it was an amazing and beautiful moment because everybody in that room was so happy, and the joy and that pure happiness that came out of that moment where you realize that the center of the Wiyot world is being returned to the Wiyot. After 150 years.
Everybody in there felt this great sense of connection and relief, but also pride and then joy for what the future could look like. And in his speech, the chairman of the Wiyot Tribe, Chairman Ted Hernandez, he says, at the end of his speech this is a really important moment. Because we are going to be able to reconnect to this space that's so important to us. He's like, but this also means our visions for what the future could be are possible. And to me, that means the next step is all of the dams are coming down. And he and was just like, yeah that's what happens, like we're starting to see, and everybody starts clapping and going like, yeah, that's also possible. And I know it's possible because I've seen it. I've seen land return in my lifetime, I’ve seen land return in my own community.
I will say that story got picked up internationally, suddenly, there were interviews going on with people from all over the world who were really excited about this possibility. As far as we know, it's the first time a city has ever returned land to an Indigenous tribe. That's incredibly important, because you're talking about a vision of a city, saying that this is possible. And then the other thing I tell people all the time is that all happened, I think on a Tuesday. Like it happened on a Tuesday. And then the next day, we all woke up and it was Wednesday. Sometimes I think people think like, we start returning land and suddenly the whole thing's gonna fall apart. And I was like, no, really, we all woke up. It was Wednesday and everything was how it was supposed to be. And it was actually really beautiful.
So, my first question is always, why can't we just give it back to Indigenous peoples? And that's everything. That's land. That's all the museum stuff, right? That's all the baskets. That's all the art. That's all everything. Why can't we give it back? Like why can't we? There's nothing that's actually stopping us. There's things that have to be worked out. There's nothing stopping us from having the vision of what that could be. I always also point out to people this in the West, and the East is a slightly different story. But on the West Coast of the United States, primarily land is owned by the federal government. So it's not even like we're saying, hey, individual people do land return. I give talks about land return, and then afterwards, I'll get somebody walking up to me, and they'll go “all of the land back?” I'm like, yeah, all of it. And they're like, what about my house? Do you want my house? I'll take your house. But did you know that in the western United States, land is primarily owned by the federal government? So really, like, can we just start there?
We're talking about what the federal government does with surplus land or extra land when yhey're not super invested in it as like a space? Can we just start there? And when you start talking to people about that, they're like, oh, because people don't have like a concept of what that means, like who owns land. So, to me, I'm always like, let's start there. Let's start with the federal government. And let's start with the state government.
I always point out to people, the state and Eureka, who I really truly am grateful and I admire them, they did an amazing thing, but they had designated this area of land as surplus land. It was not land that they were at the time invested in as usable. And part of that is because it necessitated a massive cleanup because it had been so polluted that it needed a massive cleanup in order to be used and there was no way that they could invest in and so if there are cities and states that have these spaces that they're calling surplus land, why is that not being offered and given to Indigenous peoples?
With the Wiyot, for instance, they were like, yeah, we still want it back, we are signing up for the long term, we're going to take care of this land, and they start cleaning it up and over the last 10 years, have really done a massive cleanup of that area to make it a space that is less polluted. So, to me, it's a win win for everybody.
So why not just start with the question, which is, what if we just gave it back to Indigenous peoples? What could that look like? It could be surplus land, it could be national parks, it can be state parks, all these things are out there and I think could create really powerful possibility.
Faith Kearns
Thank you so much for that. That whole answer, I think, goes even beyond kind of the idea of hopefulness and into what it means to dream an impossible dream that, as you describe in the Tuesday to Wednesday, somehow then becomes so possible, it's almost mundane, right, which is a beautiful vision for the future, I think. So, we always like to ask our guests if there's anything more that you would like people to know about your work and how we, the three of us and our listeners might support your efforts?
Cutcha Risling Baldy
I think the biggest thing is that this summer, the Native American Studies Department at Humboldt State did a certificate series about California water justice, and what it looks like to both understand the movement of California water justice, but also mobilizing for that and the ways in which Indigenous peoples need support in that. It's all up on our YouTube page. And so, if you go there, you can view all the talks. But I think what I learned from watching it, and from being a part of it, is that people are still often catching up on the history that they need to know, to understand the contemporary context of where we exist today.
A lot of people don't know the history of Klamath dams, right. They don't know the history of water policy in California, especially. Everybody says, well, then we should change the curriculum, right? Like, how do you intervene on high school? Or how do you intervene in these spaces. And I always say to people, what I have learned primarily is when I get my students in classes and I start telling them about these issues, they all go "Why didn't anybody ever tell me about this before?" — they really internalize what they learn in the fourth and fifth grade. That's what they remember. So, they're talking to me about the native things they learned in the fourth and fifth grade.
So, to me, our curriculum has to recenter an idea that we need to be having real discussions about what's happening in communities with our young people all the way through college, so that they can be ready to make the change that needs to happen. These YouTube videos are a way to start with this conversation. Start with the community members who are doing this work, they're able to really explain about why it has been so important.
I also like to remind people about water policy, especially, is we often think about it as a use policy. We rely on statistics for that. And so, it's like what are we looking at water usage wise. But when we think about Indigenous communities, we are the communities really most affected by water policy in terms of water that's being used from our communities to support other areas, primarily the agricultural industry, we have to name it, because we start to think its people. And I kind of hate that, that we get this messaging that like, if everybody took shorter showers, we'd be in a better position and I'm like, no, we can all take really short showers but until we make different decisions about what we do with our agricultural industry, it's not really going to make much of a difference. We have to think about this in terms of upholding an industry that maybe is using too much water, and that we have to think about it differently. And that's okay to have radical imaginations about what that looks like.
I will say people tell me all of this is brand new information. So, I encourage people to take the time to watch the videos to learn from people who are putting this information out there. That's a really good place to start. And then when we can start to have a conversation that's based on like a knowledge of history, I think it changes what people understand when we walk into rooms and we're like this is who we are as Indigenous peoples, this is what's going on in our communities. What I love about Indigenous movements is we're not saying water to save us, to protect us, we're saying, everybody needs water. If you spill oil into your water because your pipeline breaks, if you dam up the water and you can't get in it, or use it or drink it, that's going to affect everyone. This is about everyone.
It was the same thing with when we were talking about our world renewal ceremonies and the things that we do in the water. We're not just doing those for our peoples, that's for the whole world. And so, I like to think about it as when we come into spaces, we're not like what's the most beneficial for our Tribe or our peoples, we're like this is something we should all care about, the state of our water, that's going to make a big difference in how we're able to live in in the future, and we all have to think about that together.